Photo by Kirk Jones (www.kirkjones.info)
And CNN has the fricking goods on him. For shame, Dadwagon Matt. Such a lovely child, too!
If you have come over here from CNN.com, welcome to DadWagon. We’ve been fearlessly covering the babies-in-bars controversy forever (or at least for a few weeks). World Famous Writer Matt Gross, pictured above with his lil’ Lush, chided the NY Post for its breathless tone on the issue, while the Moderately Famous Nathan Thornburgh opined that babies in bars might keep adults from getting laid. Christopher Bonanos was reasonable: just have a baby-friendly happy hour, while Theodore Ross (who no one has heard of anywhere) might have already been drunk, because he ended up talking about Neo-Nazis having sex.
Fortunately, we posted a poll so that you can tell us if we’re all crazy.
There are actually lots of arguments over here: the four of us have disagreed on raising geeks, whether sleep training is evil, and whether birthing classes are a Wicca conspiracy. Also controversial: sending young kids to private school, letting little boys have glamrock hairdos or watch too much TV, and whether parents should turn their criminal kids over to the cops.
We also have the good interviews: with Marxist professors, Filipino rappers, and today, with tech blogger/sexual abuse survivor Joel Johnson.
As much as we adore CNN.com (corporate cousin to Nathan’s erstwhile employers), we hope to see you around here a bit as well.
Leave the GD kid at home!
Bababooeee–then who’s gonna watch him when I’m lying dead drunk under the bar? You?
Point taken, but really, leave the baby with whom? One thing we’re pretty sure about is that it suck to pay a babysitter $10-$15 an hour while you get a beer. Alas, I won’t be able to get your enlightened answer to this, since I’m pretty sure moron@dot.com is not a real address. Woe.
Oh, and by the way–we at DadWagon do not censor profanity (in re GD). So please fucking spell it the fuck out next fucking time, goddamn it!
Hey you chose to make the CHOICE to be a stay at home Dad. If you don’t like it, YOU made a bad decision. Deal with it. Don’t expect others to really care that you get stir crazy, it was your CHOICE. Bars are no place for children.
Hey, douchebag, leave your crotchfruit at home. If you can’t bear to be separated that long, then stay there with her.
Dear “Fuck you”–CROTCHFRUIT. Now that’s poetry. Really. I’m not kidding. I freaking love that.
“Bars are no place for children.” That’s an assertion, not an argument. Try harder next time.
Hell, I took my son to the pub the first week we had him home from the hospital. How else is he supposed to know about my culture?
Right on Stormsweeper. BTW–what was the father doing then? 🙂
I understand people’s aversion to bringing their children to bars. Fortunately, the strip bar that my kids and I frequent is all-nude, and per local law cannot serve booze.
Matt,
What is your stance on a bar that bans infants and minors?
I don’t think people have to justify their preference not to have crotchfruit in a bar, any more than they have to justify their views on politeness or taste. My argument is: I don’t like it … and enough other people don’t like it that bars ban them to please their customers. QED.
It wouldn’t upset me if there were bars that opened themselves up to your ilk. (Hell, why not open a daycare pen in the cloakroom?) I just wouldn’t go to them.
I don’t have any problem with bars banning kids—if the owners have calculated that losing parental business is more than made up for by the business they get from people without kids, then fine. I understand.
What I don’t understand is how people think that simply by saying “I don’t like it” that that somehow justifies a baseless prejudice. What if I said “I don’t want black/gay/straight/tall people, so the bar should ban them”? How is that different from what you’re saying?
If a bar wants a certain clientele, they’re free to create an atmosphere that encourages it and to some degree excludes outsiders. But if an outsider shows up—say, a very tall, 18-month-old lesbian—the bar and its patrons shouldn’t leap to banning them.
Yours in silly arguments,
—Matt
Theodore:
I am the father, unless you mean my priest. I don’t have one, but I would not be surprised to find some of them from St. Sebastian there.
I’m not insane, though. I wouldn’t take my kid to the bar under the train tracks. That place is just depressing.
What the fuck is Matt looking at? Doesn’t seem like he is socializing with anyone or vice-versa. Apparently starring at a TV in a bar with a GAY-ASS smile on his face can be accomplished at home. He must have a bush pig at home.
Matt,
If you think my preference is grounded in a baseless, discriminatory prejudice, then why would you support bars catering to that prejudice? Shouldn’t they be compelled by law to serve you? Doesn’t justice demand that I tolerate your baby spitting up over your shoulder or screaming while I try to sip my beer next to you?
If you’re honest with yourself, you’ll acknowledge that you’re filled with baseless prejudices. (Question: baseless as in my reasons haven’t been articulated, or baseless as in no rational basis whatsoever? I’m willing to grant I haven’t thought much about it, but I’m not willing to grant there’s no rational basis for my preference.)
Before I give you an argument for my preference, you’re going to have to show me why I have to. Show me how my preference is the same as not wanting black/gay/straight/tall people in the bar, as opposed to, say, not wanting nudists in the bar.
Yeah Matt–you bitch!
Oh wait a minute–I like Matt, not the wack job trying to debate him in the comments section. sorry. I got carried away.
We should totally organize a pub stroll. I could probably rope in a few other recent fathers from my judo club.
Wait, what’s the difference between tall people and nudists? Honestly, I don’t care if there are naked people at a bar, or old people, or whatever. As the old Greek dude in “Muppets Take Manhattan” said, “Peoples is peoples.”
As for my kid screaming: If she does, I’ll be the one removing her from the premises. I’m not stupid, you know, even if I do smile a gay-ass smile once in a while. But my kid rarely screams, has only thrown up twice in her life, and behaves well—probably better than many other bar patrons. Why should she (and I) suffer because others her age don’t have her maturity?
Yours in hurriedly typed-out responses,
Matt
Ted,
Damn, Ted, for a minute there I thought you had become a mensch and jumped off the dadwagon.
david–finally a response to a post by someone who knows me! prior to this, all of these comments were from people who either went to school with nathan or live next door to him.
If I wanted to drink around kids, I would open a daycare…leave the brats at home or God forbid, cough up some money for a sitter like normal people do!!
This is hilarious…..gotta love the term “crotchfruit”, just rolls off the tongue better than my term, “shitmakingmachine.”
Anyway, I don’t have a problem with someone bringing their kid into a bar, why would I care? I think it could be a great experience for all involved, just don’t try to change the culture of the bar because you brought your kid.
The picture of you on cnn.com is scary – you are truly an ugly individual. No wonder you cropped yourself out on the same pic on your website.
Matt,
Why should your kid be punished because other kids are less mature and puke and snot constantly? Well maybe it is because for every responsible parent/ankle biter their are 10 to 20 idiots who take it too far. So there your cute, albeit drunk looking baby, are well behaved I have to put up with 20 others who are screaming at the top of their lungs becuase they just shat themselves!!
Unfortunately for you there are more spoiled little kids in the world than good ones.
and now that I think about it the real problem is if some drunken slob starts to sob uncontrollably because his wife/gf dumped his sorry ass I can look over and holler “shut up asshole no one cares” I think doing that to a bay would be in poor taste. And as you can tell I am all about class and taste.
You are ridiculous…if a baby is allowed in the bar, then a 13 year old, or a 16 year old should be as well…use youre god damn common sense and if you want alcohol and socializing time with your brat then do it in your freaking house…stupid…
Do they have a sign on the front of bars in NY that says No Minors? They do in Canada. Sign or not, however, your actions are incredibly selfish. Partly to the people who are trying to get the fuck away from babies by attending an adult-only venue and mostly to your child. You made a choice to have a child and now you can’t reconcile that with making adult decisions. If you are so weak that you can’t stop from getting drunk with your child, at least do it at home, fuck face. NO ONE LIKES YOUR BABY. GO HOME. FUCK YOU.
I don’t get some of the converstaions here, it’s like arguing the color of the sky.
Bottom line, law states you need to be xx age to enter and sit at certain establishments. Bars are bars….at what age do you draw the line? Does anyone want to drink and hollar with a 14 year old staring at them as they sit with their Dad?
Same thing goes, I don’t want a slurring drunk lying on the mat next to my 10 month old boys at The Tots Jungle Gym…makes sense.
Matt….find other social enviroments to interact with your kid in tote.
A really silly argument and worthless piece on CNN.com
i cant spell…i dont care….youre stupid…
Matt, how many beers do you have while holding your lil one? Do you think she’s oblivious as to what she’s seeing? Have you no other friends that have children? Maybe you could leave you precious lil bundle of joy with them while you go tip a pint or 2.
Does the wife know your out at the bar with her?
Matt,
Do you honestly think that a bar requiring clothing is comparable to a bar banning black/gay/straight/tall people?
If you do, then you’re not just biting a bullet. You’re swallowing an arsenal.
**Apologies – I posted this on the poll, and I suppose it was intended for this forum. Please delete whichever you see fit.**
I am sorry, but I find the very idea of bringing a baby to a bar highly irresponsible and ultimately selfish of the parent. When you have a child, you must be ready for the sacrifices that come with that very serious commitment, and ultimately that includes going out to places that were never designed for children.
It is for this very reason that my wife and I have not had a child yet; we are not ready to accept those sacrifices and responsibilities. Parenthood is not a role that you can assume lightly – and it is sad that so many are unwilling to make the necessary lifestyle adjustments for the sake of their children.
Ultimately, this boils down to people who are more concerned with their own sense of leisure than the rights of others and the well-being of their children. If I am fortunate enough to have a child in the future, I will certainly not bring them to any place where adult activity is the predominant theme.
That’s just common sense.
Thomas Wier- Well said!
Leave The Kid home for Christs Sake!! I’m so sick of parents that think their kids deserve to be everywhere with them. Let the kids stay home with a sitter and learn to be apart from you for a reasonable amount of time. Otherwise they grow up to be pain in the ass clingy toddlers that can’t handle being away from their parents. As an adult that has a 13yr old child, I want to go to a bar and relax and not have to hear the damn crys of a crabby ass kid. I delt with that when my own child was baby. I should not have to listen to your pain in the ass when I am out at an adult venue. I did my time and stayed home with my kid, now it is your turn to do the same thing. This is just as bad as stupid ass parents bringing an infant to a movie that is for grown ups. I don’t want to hear your screaming kid in the theater and I don’t want to see them or hear them in the bar.
You know who’s having a great time in that picture? Not the kid. Selfish jackass.
Bravo, Thomas Wier!
Matt – what do you think about the drunk who wants to bring his 6-pack or pint of rotgut to the local tot lot playground? It’s a public space, right, and shouldn’t everbody get to enjoy the nice park? Can’t a fella sit around with his rug rat peeps and get wasted?
(Yes, I’m ignoring both age-related restrictions on entering bars and public consumption laws.)
Does this mean it’s ok to take your kid to a strip joint? Interact with Kandi grinding on your lap!
Hey Matt…ever heard of Starbucks?
At least he knows that, no matter what happens from this point on in his life, nobody will ever take a picture of him that makes him look stupider.
Nice cropping job, btw.
I’m confused (but I’m Canadian, so it kinda feels natural…) here in Vancouver we have restraunts and we have bars. Both serve food, and most restraunts (the non-fast food type) serve booze. You must be legal age (19 here) to enter a bar, regardless of if your with mommy or daddy. Is it somehow different in NY?
In my book, if the law allows minors to enter the establishment it’s not a bar, it’s a restraunt so open season. But if you’re required to be legal age then leave the tots at home….and just pick up a 6 pack to enjoy on the couch (and might I suggest real beer, not that pussy 3.5% crap you guys brew below the 49th).
Oh, and no hard feelings over that hockey game eh?
It’s just a bad idea. As an adult you shouldn’t need to be convinced of it. There are lots of things I want to do that, as a parent, I can’t. Period. Case closed.
“I long for adult contact. … I don’t want to be excluded from the adult world.”
Hey pal its called being responsible. You made your choice when you decided to have a kid. SUCK IT UP.
If you can’t afford a babysitter then buying drinks should be the least of your worries. I go to bars to get away from kids and hipsters with their inflated sense of entitlement.
Mike…………like a cold can of Canadian at Earl’s as you watch Don Cherry, you rock my friend!
ps…curling IS a sport!
There are plenty of family-friendly alternatives to bars. Bars are for grown-ups only, please. When I go to the bar for a pint and some adult conversation, I don’t want to deal with baby drool or poopie diapers.
Wow.
Okay, here’s the truth. Much as parents who take their kids want to be given the “bad” label — which carries a certain cache these days — the truth is that they are just sad.
And kind of stupid.
Oy vey. Really. I hate to pat myself on the back for having had my two oldest kids when I was in my 20’s but dudes, what this means is that, should I actually wish to hang out with my kids in bars, I can actually do so because said children are now 25 and 21 respectively.
(Then again, we kind of have our own social circles. And subjecting my youngest — 14 years old — to the sight of mom or dad in a bar is a form of torture, I’m sure.)
But age has nothing to do with it. This is about something else — call it common sense. The real word for it exists only in Yiddish — sechel. The closest translation is BRAINS.
While we’re on the subject, I’d love to come out of the closet as a parent of three kids who is nevertheless thoroughly sick of seeing other people’s kids in places they don’t belong — the nail salon, the steam room at the gym, cocktail parties, book readings…and now, bars.
If hiring a sitter is too expensive, honestly, defer the bar-going habit or develop a “nights-off” system with your partner or do co-op babysitting with friends. It won’t kill you, you’ll have more fun and piss off fewer people.
I’m about to head out to meet some friends for drinks at a bar before heading to the 92nd St Y for a lecture. My 14 year old is home, reading Maus II for English class. My older kids live away. I’m glad I’m me and not you.
Only shitty parents bring their little shits to the bar! Get a fucking clue, grow up, and handle your need for social contact and a cold beer (or a stiff drink) like a responsible parent. It’s in their best interests and those of everyone else in the bar. Basically you’re selfish! And you gave up that right when you had kids. The sooner you realize that the better. A good, or even reasonable, argument supporting why infants or kids should be in a bar does not exist. This rant (written by someone who has kids) doesn’t even really address all the other reasons why this is a horrible, horrible idea (e.g. bars are for adults to be adults…talk shit, tell dirty jokes, unwind, etc.). I repeat…get a fucking clue and man up.
Congratulations! You are a douchebag of the highest caliber. Do you really think that people will be on your side in this? Kind of forgot that when you have kids, some of your freedoms go out the door, didn’t ya.
Kudos to the person that mentioned the bad crop job.
Here ya go.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/03/02/brooklyn.babies.in.bars/index.html?hpt=C1
Who brings their desgner children to bars? Selfish alcoholics. Wear it proudly, hipsters. A new low, even for you.
“Should parents be allowed to bring their babies and children to bars?”
It depends.
The question posed in the article is too simplistic to deserve a more elaborate answer.
I’m more concerned with parents getting drunk at Applebee’s and driving their kids home than I am with parents taking their kids to “mellow hangouts” before 7 p. m., as Matt said he does in the article.