Photo by Kirk Jones (www.kirkjones.info)
And CNN has the fricking goods on him. For shame, Dadwagon Matt. Such a lovely child, too!
If you have come over here from CNN.com, welcome to DadWagon. We’ve been fearlessly covering the babies-in-bars controversy forever (or at least for a few weeks). World Famous Writer Matt Gross, pictured above with his lil’ Lush, chided the NY Post for its breathless tone on the issue, while the Moderately Famous Nathan Thornburgh opined that babies in bars might keep adults from getting laid. Christopher Bonanos was reasonable: just have a baby-friendly happy hour, while Theodore Ross (who no one has heard of anywhere) might have already been drunk, because he ended up talking about Neo-Nazis having sex.
Fortunately, we posted a poll so that you can tell us if we’re all crazy.
There are actually lots of arguments over here: the four of us have disagreed on raising geeks, whether sleep training is evil, and whether birthing classes are a Wicca conspiracy. Also controversial: sending young kids to private school, letting little boys have glamrock hairdos or watch too much TV, and whether parents should turn their criminal kids over to the cops.
We also have the good interviews: with Marxist professors, Filipino rappers, and today, with tech blogger/sexual abuse survivor Joel Johnson.
As much as we adore CNN.com (corporate cousin to Nathan’s erstwhile employers), we hope to see you around here a bit as well.
Wow. People are really getting all bent out shape over this. What it comes down to is environment. I grew up in an area where all of the bars had kitchens, menus and family friendly atmospheres. It was expected to bring the kids to the bar for dinner out with the family or social time with friends. The bars even had high chairs available and popsicles in the back to hand out to the kids.
My parents wouldn’t bring us to a bar at 9 pm on a Saturday night. The atmosphere wasn’t for the under 18 crowd, but Thursday at 6pm, perfect.
Not all bars are family friendly, nor do they have to be, but I can’t see what all the hub-ub is about.
Take your kids at family friendly time to family friendly places, what’s the big whoop?
Don’t drink and baby. Just say noomi nana.
@Ben Thanks for the measured response. It TOTALLY depends, and as with anything, if your baby is totally blowing the fist-fighting, chain-smoking ambiance of a place, then you probably should move on. But if it’s a relaxed pub and an appropriate time of the day, why deny dude a drink and the bar the business.
Funny how a lot of people seem to be projecting their fears about babies on this whole conversation. We never said (and never would, I don’t think) that people should watch their mouths. We’re talking babies here, not 9-year-olds. Who cares if people swear around babies? They can’t even talk. Nor does it damage a baby to see people drinking (responsibly). And no, we’re not driving home from a bar in Brooklyn. We walk or take the subway. And no, we don’t keep them out till 10pm. If we did suggest any of that, then perhaps we would be fuckfaces or douchebags or whatnot.
So, like you said, it just depends.
Just wanted to let you know that there is a group called babies and beer that meets every Friday from 4-6p.m. I will leave the location undisclosed, (for fear if some if these angry bar dwellers finding us) but you have my email if you are interested. And yes, we all bring our little ones and enjoy some much deserved wind down time after a long week. Cheers!
W stands for WOW.
strangely, i have no strong opinion on the matter, but am blow away by the passion i’m picking up in these comments, particularly the negative vibes. regardless of you how you feel, casting Matt as the worst dad ever is, well, messed up. kinda sanctimonious, too.
i’ve spent plenty of times in big cities, and if i still lived in one, i bet that i’d hit bars a touch more frequently than i do currently. truth is, i live in a small little southern town, so when i get my drink on, it’s at home. (while rocking perfect 1-1/4 strips on the green egg, y’all. seared on the outside with a warm, pink center. poolside. recognize, bitches.)
my point? i’m a damn good grillsman. no, actually it’s that i have a hard time getting worked up either way on this one since i kick it in the rolling suburbs.
BUT, for those of you who are super-mad? i don’t get it. as theodore points out in his cleverly written post, people have “disagreed on raising geeks, whether sleep training is evil, and whether birthing classes are a Wicca conspiracy. Also controversial: sending young kids to private school, letting little boys have glamrock hairdos or watch too much TV, and whether parents should turn their criminal kids over to the cops.”
what more do you have to read to realize one simple thing? there’s no manual folks. and pretending like your way is the only one? gimme a break. and while you’re giving it to me, why don’t you hand me a copy of john milton’s areopagitica, cool? b/c when i’m done, i’m gonna make sure you read it.
@ John Cave Osborne
Unfortunately, when it comes to the internet, it is easy to lose a sense of civility with comments. I certainly do not agree with Matt’s insistence on taking his child to a place designed with adults in mind, but you are right about one thing: the demonization is all a bit much.
However, regardless of your approach to parenting, there are certain things that are just not things that you should willingly expose your children to. Going into a bar, a place where (like it or not) cultural mores have determined as a place where smoke, language, and booze flow freely, and expecting the paradigm to shift because of the presence of your child is simply arrogance. Bars are not libraries, coffee shops or wine clubs. They are an outlet for vice.
Expecting it to be anything else on the merits of some inflated sense of entitlement? What sense does that make?
As I said above, a parent has a responsibility towards their child, and that should preclude exposure to smoke, foul language and intoxicated adults. Relativism is all fine and good for parenting, but explain to me how this was ever about the well-being of the child.? After all, Matt’s contention is that HE needs to relax; nowhere in his argument has he asserted that the environment is a positive one for his child.
And that’s really the crux of the matter; the parent is concerned not about the best interests of their child, but their own gratification. However much he would like to avoid his responsibilities, it is not something that he can do as a parent simply by virtue of HAVING a child.
Again, this is a common sense matter. You can make the claim that exposure to a bar is a positive influence on a child until you’re blue in the face – seeing as how it was designed without their interests in mind, you couldn’t be more wrong.
Thank you for reading.
@Thomas Wier Thanks for weighing in. I think, though, there are a couple assumptions you’re making that don’t match the scenario, particularly about Matt taking a baby where “smoke, language, and booze flow freely”.
Smoke: there’s no smoking in any bar in New York City (or really, in most places these days). No way we’d be having this conversation if there was.
Language: look at Matt’s kid. She’s cute and all, but she’s a BABY. Matt could drop f-bombs all day on her and it wouldn’t phase/hurt her. And nobody here was arguing for going into a bar and telling people to clean up their language. That would just be obnoxious. Nor are we talking, as so many commenters imagined, about teenagers or tweens or any other age group coming into bars. It’s babies. In bars.
Drink: Matt already said in the CNN.com piece that he’s not knocking back double vodkas. Seeing pops drink a couple beers? Hardly going to scar the kid, who is, again, a BABY.
As for the idea that a trip to the bar is not in the baby’s interest, it’s a fine point, if you believe that every waking moment of a parent’s life needs to be spent doing the most awesomely baby-centered things ever. Actually, though, life is a balance between sanity for the parent and edification for the baby. I’m sure Matt does baby-tastic activities all day long. An hour not devoted to Baby Einstein keeps dad sane, which in turn helps baby.
Keep in mind that our grandparents’ generation was getting bombed on martinis every afternoon while their babies did lord know what, and our parents’ generation was doing bumps of coke while the kids watched Spiderman on TV. I think Matt’s quite civilized in comparison.
Hi Nathan:
You raise fine points, and as far as the child is concerned, I suppose it boils down to just how much you imagine they retain at younger ages. I won’t pretend that I have the results of studies to suggest that an 18 month old child would be capable of fully appreciating the social ramifications of language. I will, however, argue that there is no point in tempting fate.
It’s true; everyone needs to be able to relax. It is incumbent upon parents, however, to do so in a manner that offers no exposure to the child for any potential harm. While cigarette smoke may not be a concern in your area (recent smoking bans have come into effect here in Portland, OR, as well) there are still several harms that can potentially result.
Who is to say, for instance, that another patron might not become rowdy or violent from excess drink? The other patrons in the bar are as much a liability as they are a social concern. Is it worth the risk?
It sounds to me like Matt is a new parent, and I wish him the best of it. He may very well be a better parent than 90% of all other parents in the city, state, country, world, galaxy, etc, but should that virtue dispel the need for caution and judicious self-restraint?
There are plenty of ways to relax…and it sounds to me like this has actually caused more stress than it has cured.
“That’s an assertion, not an argument. Try harder next time.”
You sound as much of a hipster douche as those goofy glasses make you look. How about setting a better example for your kid and not drinking around her?
“We should totally organize a pub stroll. I could probably rope in a few other recent fathers from my judo club.”
What are you going to do, swing your baby at them? Do you not realize that bringing your child to pick a fight might not be such a great idea? People like you shouldn’t have children.
I’m sorry, but if you are allowed to have your baby with you at the bar, I should be allowed to have my 19 year old cousin sit with me at the bar when I enjoy my beer and she enjoy her soda.
Let me ask a question of all y’all: If you weren’t told that that picture was in a bar, would you know it was in a bar? There is food, a table, windows, an empty champagne flute and a bottle of water. If you ask me, that’s not even a bar.
wait wait wait, this is a bar in SAN FRANCISCO?! This is an even more complete absurdity. Why did they publish a picture of him in a bar in SF if they’re all fussed about bars in Brooklyn? Ridiculous. Media is a mess.
Raised my daughter single-handedly for 12 years, worked a home business for 7 of those years. Never occured to me that I was missing out on the mid-day brewsky at the local watering hole.
Granted laws are different here (unless there’s a show w/ special licencing, bars are strictly legal drinking age+)…still I imagine I’d feel like I was burdening others.
It is appropriate that a person should expect to walk into a bar and have it be ONE place they don’t have to deal with (so wonderful) crotchfruit.
I think Matt is a CUNT for taking his kid to a bar. Seriously if you cant afford to hire a baby sitter you shouldnt have been fucking in the first place. Im all about kids anywhere but not in a bar, the last thing i want to see some crying fucking kid in there with some broke ass dad that should be saving his money to be able to take care of his kid. Why make us pay for your fucking mistake. Stay home dude!!!
Hey, which San Francisco bar is that?
I’d like to know … so I can avoid it.
First and last time visitor here, after reading the CNN story. And, I’m a 8+ year at-home dad who also likes his beer and wine. Still…..
Keep the kids out of bars. You want to get out? Take a healthy walk, sit in a locally-owned coffee shop, let the kid crawl about there. Go to a museum, a kid’s playplace, a park. Kids get nothing out of being in bars, it isn’t a generally good atmosphere for them, so it’s a strictly selfish act. Recognize that. From on SAHD to another.
@Nathan
Just FYI – The CNN mentions that people have been asked to change their behavior by parents who have brought their children into bars. While “no one is arguing it here” might be true, the thought is an extension of the article.
And, no, not every waking moment of a parent’s life should be spent doing baby things, but activities involving the child should be considered with the interests of the baby, and not the parent, in mind. This act is selfish and doesn’t have to be. Just don’t bring the baby.
And your argument that being exposed to a bar or harsh language or the father drinking isn’t a bad thing for a baby doesn’t really conclude that it is good for the child.
By the way, it may be just me, but the child in the picture appears to be crying. Certainly not an endorsement from Sasha.
Jesus, if you can’t afford a baby sitter @ $10-15/hour, don’t pop one out. What is that, two less beers a trip (or, god forbid, a less expensive beer that people have actually heard of before)? How much do you people spend at the Apple store every 6 months, or every time you feel it necessary to pay extra buying organic food at the farmers market.
If this story and it’s accompanying photo aren’t the most glaring examples of Hipster Bag Tooldom currently residing in Brooklyn, I don’t know what is. Reason number 126 to stay in Manhattan.
How does it feel to be such a cliche?
Oh, and Christ! Dad Wagon?!?! Awesome…..If I ever show up to this site again, it will be to laugh at and mock the writers.
Blogging, or the way I can hopefully make my narcissistic need to constantly talk about myself into a moneymaking endeavor.
Now, please say something ironic….
Or if not something ironic, maybe another passage from a Muppets movie? Somehow I don’t think this is the kind of quality commentary Al Gore had in mind when he created the internet.
As a bartender for over twenty years, it is my personal opinion that bars are no place for children, but that is my own personal opinion. It is derived from my own personal experience with dealing with this situation, and my experience a large majority of the time consists of the following:
1. The parents let their kids run wild throughout the establishment without bothering to interrupt their buzz-seeking long enough to actually supervise their children, instead expecting the staff to do the babysitting for them.
2. The parents get all upset if other patrons act “too loud or inappropriately” in front of their children, even though they chose to bring them to an adult-oriented venue. Adults are expected by the parents to alter their normal behavior because their little angels might hear something bad.
3. Patrons who believe bars are not the place for children are made to feel uncomfortable and boorish if they protest the presence of children, or feel they must regulate and inhibit their behavior and not cut loose because there are kids present,and are likely to frequent other less kid-present places.
If these dynamics could be overcome, especially #1, then maybe adults with and without kids could find a middle ground in the bar arena. However, with a large majority of parents feeling that their little angels can do now wrong and that part of the bar staff’s job is to babysit their little ones while they catch their buzz, and with the no-kids-allowed bar patrons clinging to their notions that bars are a place to escape from kids, responsibility and the outside world, I doubt this is going to happen soon.
Only in NY! Baby Bars! Coming to a California City Near You.
Are you tired of spending time alone with your child while stuck at home? Well come on down to Bob’s Baby Bar. We’ll show you a rockin’ time, while you rock your kid in our handcrafted half-kegs.
Wednesday nights is lullaby karaoke! Let our drunken patrons sing your child to sleep with your kids’ favorite tunes. Karaoke starts at 6:30pm and goes until 7:45pm. Warm milk not provided, so mom’s you’ll just have to whip it out. I’m sure no one will mind – especially if you’re young and hot.
Oh, and don’t forget, BABIES aren’t really human yet, so feel free to drop the F-Bomb whenever you feel the urge. But please, do not smoke around the strollers with baby present. Thank you.
Hi!! Matt, my husband and I take our little ones (we have three) to a bar when we travel home. The place has the BEST wings and are perfect with a cold Bud Light. Granted, we do not go often, and once the place starts filling up we get them out of there. Your daughter is absolutly beautiful btw!!!!
I can see it now, bouncers not letting people in cause their babies aren’t hot enough. You’re good, you’re cool, go ahead in, whoa wait! Not you, you’re babies fugly, get lost.
It’s still OK for single men to bring other people’s babies to the bar for the puppy effect, right? My buddy was watching my two year old for me and he went out for a couple pops, next thing he new, he was swarmed. I was a little upset because he dropped my kid back off an hour early, but once I laid my eyes on the guy he picked up I cut him some slack.
I’m thinking of opening a baby rental service. The cuter the baby, the higher the price per hour.
Matt, at least you can say you don’t drink alone.
When you queef at the bar, do you blame it on your daughter?
The vocabulary that has come out of this comment string has been FABULOUS. Crotchfruit, queef, Hipster Bag Tooldom, Designer Children, shitmakingmachine, bar arena. Many, many thanks to those who wrote.
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I live in Iowa. I have a deck and a nice big back yard. When I want a beer, I tell them to go play in the backyard while daddy downs a cold one. Neighbors come over, we all chill out and have a good time. How big are the backyards in the Big Apple? I know, blogging from Iowa would be impossible. We don’t have the internet. You chose to live there, you choose to live by the rules. Rule is, no minors. Pints at the bar, 3.50. I bet they are a little more in NY? 🙂 Peace out, w6
Weaky6–what is this “backyard” of which you speak, stranger?
Weaky6, don’t you know that in New York only suckers follow rules?
“What I don’t understand is how people think that simply by saying ‘I don’t like it’ that that somehow justifies a baseless prejudice. What if I said ‘I don’t want black/gay/straight/tall people, so the bar should ban them’? How is that different from what you’re saying?”
This is a perfect example of the sort of hipster-yuppie dearth of common sense I’m always talking about. For regular working people, something like bringing a baby into a bar is a fucking no-brainer. You don’t try to have an academic discussion about the pros and cons, theorizing about why or why not. You just don’t do it, because it’s common fucking sense. Just the same way a bunch of guys don’t set up a poker game in McDonald’s Play Place.
The same theme continues into basically everything the hipster-yuppie transplants do. They move into the middle of ethnic neighborhoods and then complain about the people there. They ride their rickety Schwinns down busy commercial thoroughfares and then complain about the traffic. They have their parents send them heaps of money for rent and then complain that Brooklyn landlords are “greedy.” They move into busy urban areas and then complain about things like the ice cream truck’s music. I mean, it never ends. And they do this all with the most self-righteous air ever, acting as though we Brooklyn natives are trash for accepting Brooklyn the way it’s pretty much always been. It’s like these yupsters were raised in some sort of sterile suburban incubator bubble where they never learned the basic skills and logic of the world.
Oh, these sort don’t complain about the other bar customers. The other bar customers complain about them because they’ve blocked the entrances with their idiotic yupster strollers and the floor with diaper bags and toys. (Dallas had one such bar on Greenville Avenue that burned down yesterday, and that place was always packed solid with yupsters who moved to the neighborhood solely so they could walk to the bars. First it was because a public intoxication ticket was cheaper than a DWI charge, and so they could piss and shit in their own front yards when crawling home after a good eight-hour booze run. Now it’s so they can save the money on babysitters by bringing their crotchdroppings inside the bar or the liquor store on the corner.)
As for this pencil-necked geek? Now you understand why the New York Times won’t shut the fuck up about hipster haunts. He and his ilk may write about Portland all day, but it’s not like they’d move there: the local paper wouldn’t pay them to write about hipsters all day the way they can in New York.
Whew. Thank God the anonymous sage at diehipster.com is here to stick up for the “working class”. Because if there’s anything we know about the Working Class, it’s that they spend their days railing against fixies and tight jeans on their WordPress blogs.
Definitely worth checking their site out: http://diehipster.wordpress.com/ Some bad photoshopping and lots of fratty jokes about half-asian babies and punching people in the face. There’s probably a good point in there somewhere about gentrification, but it’s a little lost in the flood of idiocy.
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This thread really kind of degenerated into something putrid, didn’t it?
Oh well. Since the adults are getting buried, I guess that’s when it’s time to close up shop.
@Thomas Wier Ha. Yes, there’s something rotten in the thread, although to honest, it started out that way (“Leave the GD kid at home” was the first comment). But the tone does make me wonder why there’s such a divide between parents and non-parents. If the bar is part of how and where you hang out, if it’s really about a community, then it seems like in an ideal, relaxed world, you should be able to bring your baby along once you have one (at the appropriate time of day, and being respectful of other people there).
One thing I think that all the DadWagoners agree on is that your lives get pretty well transformed when you have a kid. We welcome that. But we don’t think it’s a shameful goal to try to integrate who you were with who you are. Parenting is a pain in the ass in the country in part because it’s hard to breastfeed where you work, hard to find a place to go out with your baby (we shouldn’t have to go to Applebee’s by law, should we?).
As for your about babies being around violent drunks: @Steve said in his thoughtful comment that it’s ridiculous to expect bartenders to look after kids (and, it bears repeating: if you take your baby to a bar and expect anyone to adjust their behavior to your baby, then you’re the a-hole). Bartenders are responsible, however, for keeping people from getting drunk and violent. Even when there are no babies around. The good ones do this extremely well and without a lot of drama.
And again, it all depends on context. I know the bars where people go to fight. I’m not taking the baby there. I want to go to the local pub, where people are either happy drunks or at least sulky drunks that keep to themselves. We’re not talking about crackhouses, just bars. Alcohol isn’t that scary, most of the time.
Just my thoughts. Thanks for keeping it adult up in here.
It doesl not look like a bar, more like a good restaurant. So i think its ok to takea to place like that. Imho
@Matt Jealousy will get you no where sucka! 😉 Now, if there wasn’t 20+ inches of snow on the deck, I would be using it a little more. Have you heard of a lawn mower? It goes well with that backyard thingy.
What is the big deal? When I was in Europe, I saw kids in bars all the time! Hell, it’s a family event in Ireland.
Why should drinking be some naughty thing that we keep closed off? To those who say it makes them uncomfortable to drink around kids, I’d say you might want to rethink your relationship with alcohol. And if there are things going on in bars that aren’t suitable for kids to see, I say THAT should be outlawed…not the presence of children.
Why are we so ridiculous, intolerant, prudish, aghhhh the list goes on! The US needs to grow up!
I wish you the best in your efforts–if all else fails open your own bar specifically for families! You could have a sign on the door, instead of “no shirt, no shoes, no service,” how about “no stroller, no babe, no booze!”
$10-$15/hr for a sitter?! I’m going to leave the Midwest, move to New York and undersell all the local sitters by $5 and make a fortune. My sitter here gets paid $2.50/hr and feels guilty if I tip her to make her bill an even $20. That said, a bar is for adults. A pub, in it’s original conception, is a family place until a certain hour. Visiting my mum’s family in England and Ireland, pubs often had cots for children to nap on if the hour was late and the parents were still socializing. Know what kind of joint you’re in, be aware of the time and your child’s mood/behavior, and responsible in your consumption and I don’t see a problem. If this is such an issue, maybe someone should open a stroller pub. Call it MacLaren’s.
PS I’m not a dad, um, obviously but I hope it was okay to share my view. Again, best of luck!
@Meghan MacLaren’s–that’s a hilarious idea. I do wonder if a baby-only bar in Brooklyn wouldn’t also get firebombed (judging from some of the commentary over here). On a serious note, though–$2.50 an hour for babysitters? I don’t know if that’s the most wonderful or most terrifying thing I’ve heard all day. Please tell me you’re talking about how much you pay you teenager to watch over younger siblings? Because even in the Midwest, people have to you know, eat.
@Sarah Yes, non-dads totally welcome, don’t let the name fool you. We are an inclusive Wagon over here. Thanks for commenting.
I don’t see the big deal about this. I probably wouldn’t do it as I live in a smaller town and would have to deal with what you guys are dealing with in the comments here – a bunch of sanctimonious opinionated ado over really nothing. From the photo, it actually looks like a nice place as well.
So if we break it down further…the smoking in bars argument. There’s no smoking in NYC. I’d love to have that here in Michigan (militia and tea-bagger central) although the law is finally changing for restaurants in April/May.
Disreputable people hang out in bars. Disreputable people hang out everywhere. I was hanging out one day at the coffee shop meeting with a reporter friend of mine. We were talking about the sex offender list so for shits and giggles we looked up the zip code for where we were at. We ended up seeing two people on the list who hang out at that coffee shop all the time. Assholes and dirtbags are everywhere no matter where you hang.
That’s all for me – family is heading to Chili’s for 2 for 1 margarita night.
Just kidding.
Darn cute kid. The expression looks like he just discovered stale beer. And, who better to discover stale beer with than your Pops- your sixth grade peers? ::snort:: CNN coverage- excellent.
@Nathan No. She’s the daughter of a work colleague and I offered to pay her $5, but her mother balked at it and said $2.50 was enough. There’s not much in the way for adult sitters/nannies around here, but the average going rate seems to be around $5, but my girl seems perfectly happy with her $2.50 and practically dances when she gets a $20 bill. She’s 15, so maybe that’s a lot of money? Kansas seems to be behind in a lot of things, but unlike our being at least a year behind in getting current fashions in stores, I’m not complaining about the lack of inflation for sitters. I can’t believe the vehemence of some of these comments. 7 pm at a local pub is not the balls to the walls bacchanalia that, say, 1 or 2 am is. As long as you’re not hovering over other patrons asking them to change their behavior and are responsible yourself, there should be no problems. Have your beer and maybe a sandwich, then get kiddo home for bed and watch some tv or read a book or whatever it is you do in the evenings. The douches that seem to think children are a plague need to take a pill and relax. My child is cuter than your designer duds any day of the week.
Why do folks always have to fuck shit up. Show’n off your baby on the bar like it’s a Razr phone.
I just don’t get it. What’s all that fuzz about? You should move to europe as over here there is nothing special about it. Also there is no censoring of words like fuck on TV and bare breasts are also no problem. By the way I am the father of a 7 month old son. Keep it up!
Seriously, I don’t know where to begin. What’s with all the baby hate. You may not agree with Matt’s actions but if you hate children (BTW you used to be one and without them the species would die) so much that you must refer to them as shits, brats and crotch fruit, that’s an issue for your therapist not this blog.
Second, this is New York City. I live in Toronto and I can tell you my kid is just as likely to encounter drunkenness and obscenity on the street/subway/playground as in a bar in the afternoon. I hate to repeat what’s been said, well, repeatedly but we are not talking about late nights out getting soused. It’s a pint in a pub during or before the dinner hour. Chill the fuck out. If you need to be out drinking your ass off flinging obscenities at 5pm I will reiterate, that’s an issue for your therapist.
I LOVE the comments. So creative and original. Pure comedy. Obviously, none of you have kids nor live in Park Slope, Brooklyn. It’s a different world. Kids are part of the community, and socializing at a bar, with your friends, and kids, is part of that community. And there is no reason parents can’t get out and enjoy the simple things in life. That’s what makes it so unique. We’re not talking heavy drinking establishments, just local, clean, and fun hang spots where you can drop in with your wife and the crotchfruit for a cold one and conversation and existing in the real world. And this is something that happens on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, not at prime time meat market hours. Why should kids be hidden away from the rest of the world? Anyone ever been to France, the UK, Germany, Italy? They seem to enjoy themselves out at local establishments with the kids. No problem. No whining. What a bunch of bitches you all are. Am sure there are better things for you to do than worry about Matt and Sasha. She will likely be a woman of the world, smart, intelligent and open minded. You, likely, will end up flat on the floor of some crappy bar, complaining about the sex parties your kids throw in high school, without inviting you.